Just got given a car...

monkey magic · Post by **monkey magic** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:12 pm

Hey hey,

Just got given a 96 Rover 220 SD ... im debating wether to mod it and keep it or just clean it up and sell it as i already have a ZR.

what i want to know is ... is it a turbo ? and if so can I fit a dump valve...

Oh and does anyone know the spec of this car BHP/ Torque etc ?

Cheers

matthews2k · Post by **matthews2k** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:16 pm

Should be a turbo.

But if i remember there are two types Low Compression
and high compression turbo's on the 220 Mk3 Diesels

Not sure how you tell the difference

Post by **Punx0r** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:21 pm

It is possible to fit a dump valve to a turbo diesel, but no idea why you would want to...

matthews2k · Post by **matthews2k** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:25 pm

I think you can

but not 100% sure

Post by **Cableguy** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:26 pm

Punx0r wrote:It is possible to fit a dump valve to a turbo diesel, but no idea why you would want to...

Not one that does anything though tbh. They do very little on petrol engines , diesel they are 100% useless.

monkey magic · Post by **monkey magic** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:27 pm

cos im 20 with 6 points and i want to head a wooooshhh lol.

cant afford insurance on a normal turbo car and saying as ive just got this given im just playing with ideas.

Ive just found the spec of it and it is a turbo... Now just need to find out were to and how to fit a dump valve lol otherwise it will be getting sold on me hinks.

monkey magic · Post by **monkey magic** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:28 pm

Theres a 306 TD that flies about my area and it has a mega loud dump valve, its just drove past me before and got me thinking. im not bothered about power gains / losses im just after sound

Post by **Cableguy** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:28 pm

Your going to sell it if you cant fit a dump valve ?

Just buy a whistle , any educated person will just laugh at the fact youve fitted a dump valve , any non educated person will think a bus has arrived

matthews2k · Post by **matthews2k** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:30 pm

Try one of these http://www.dump-valves.co.uk

Will Be Cheaper

M-Tek Performance · Post by **M-Tek Performance** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:31 pm

dump valves for diesels are often the wrong side of Â£250.00.

M-Tek Performance · Post by **M-Tek Performance** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:40 pm

BTW, i will kindly take the 220 SD off your hands for the price you paid for it, as Â£250+ for the dump valve is excessive

Banford · Post by **Banford** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:33 pm

Oh dear, I often read posts like this, Seems that having a DV is the be all and end all these days.

al_roverMG · Post by **al_roverMG** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:39 pm

M-Tek Performance wrote:dump valves for diesels are often the wrong side of Â£250.00.

Yeah but that is only because they are charging you for a "black box of trickery" in reality it shouldnt cost more than about 30 odd quid plus the price of a normal dump valve.

Basically the reason most diesels wont work with a dump valve (for those who dont know so those who do please dont think i am trying to teach granny to suck eggs LOL) is that there is no throttle butterfly. In stead the engine speed is governed by the opening and shutting of the fuel pump. You therefore get no real vacuum on the manifold side of the butterfly as there isnt one. I think i am right in saying the L series has a vacuum pump for operating the servo etc for the brakes (but havent had a chance to confirm this)

What you will need is to fit the dump valve as you normally would but in the vacuum line you fit a electrically operated valve ( i think saabs are a good source of these so i am told) and then a switch to the closed position on the pump end of the throttle cable. the switch then operates the valve so as when the throttle closes the dump valve is activated.

I know it isnt big or clever but most people if honest fit a dump valve to the T16 tubby for noise mostly so i dont see why the Lseries shouldnt get some of the action.

hope this helps a bit

Stevo135+ · Post by **Stevo135+** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:49 pm

It suprises me, as at one time everyone wanted a fast nasp gti, during the 90's, and after the hot hatch insurance crisis. The original era of the dump valve being fitted to everything, was to cars like the Escort RST, MG Metro turbo, and R5 GTT. The people who keep going on about dump valves all the time now, were probably still in nappies back then!

The thing is the turbo era is coming back again now, with the vast majority of hot (not warm) hatches and fast saloons in production today are turbocharged, and the trend is that turbocharging/supercharging everything that a manufacturer wants to make into a fast car, is the future?

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:59 pm

your never going to beat a turbo though are you?

i know you can get high powered nasps, but they cost more to make, and dont drive the same. People dont want the thrash the t1ts off a car, and they dont want much bigger (and more expensive) engines.

whacking a turbo onto a relatively similar engine yeilds good results. Its not surprising that lots of manufacturers are using them. Also noted are that the models are not named turbo now...

in the past you had escort turbo , r5 turbo, rover 220/420 turbo, metro turbo, all with the word turbo in the name...

now its all astra VXR and Cupra R and GTIetc etc. Nothing is called a 'turbo' any more. Perhaps it aims to be too specific, and customers dont like the idea of being branded a boy racer by there workmates/family etc, due to the days gone by...

I like the turbo badge on the 820 though

...

SteTommo · Post by **SteTommo** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:02 pm

A bit off topic but just out of interst does anyone know what it is that makes that wobbly noise instead of a tissshhhh. I don't just mean chatter. Ive seen a few cars that sound like htey have a turkey attached to their turbo. They give off a loud wobbly noise on let off.

Any ideas? - don't worry I won't be tying to fit one to a desil.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:08 pm

thats not wastegate chatter , its compressor stall (air coming back out the inlet).

you cant get it with a smaller turbo, as the air seems to come out too fast, making the turkey gobble too quickly, and makes a pathetic "cha cha cha cha cha" sort of noise...

i blanked off my recirc at the RR day in basingstoke, and it wasnt terribly impressive. Yet the chap who made 250, his much larger turbo sounds better.

i dont think anyone has got a better sound than quick fluttering on a standard t25... Ive tried with the actuator plumbed in behind and infront of the throttle body (do on lift off, actuator is helped held closed by vacuum), but it made no difference.

Post by **SubCat001** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:35 pm

The reason so many manufactures are turning to forced induction is because of emissions and tax. As cars are getting heavier anything remotely sporty needs a fair amount of power. What better way to make up for the weight deficit by strapping a turbo to the engine and keeping it within an exceptable tax bracket. Words like turbo and GTi still hold an insurance stigma so most manufactures avoid using them. Also more mainstream models are receiving the turbo treatment. Check out VWs compound charged TSi engine. 168BHP@6000rpm(200+ version in the making), 177lbs/ft between 1750-4500rpm and 38+mpg from a 1.4 Petrol

.

http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new_cars/te ... ossary/TSI

420gazza · Post by **420gazza** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:47 pm

i think the wobble sound your referring to is called a flutter valve.Some rovers standard recirculating valves are flutter valves but you cant hear em unless you fit a descent cone filter.

Sheaf · Post by **Sheaf** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:11 am

Cableguy wrote:any educated person will just laugh at the fact youve fitted a dump valve , any non educated person will think a bus has arrived

will-220GSiTurbo · Post by **will-220GSiTurbo** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:59 pm

I had a mate with a 306 dt,with a D.V. We laughed at him every time we saw him,imo, fitting a D.V to a diesel is pretty sad, and as others have said,they cost loads to even buy.

C2K · Post by **C2K** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:12 pm

I laugh at all the people on 306.net that but dump valves for their DT's, despite the bashing that goes on in every thread.

Some people will remember the DERV Doctor registering on here, and we scared him away because he peddled his dump valves in every thread. He makes a killing off dump valves for 306's. It's pathetic really.

Stevo135+ · Post by **Stevo135+** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:20 am

But does'nt he have a fairly rapid 306 D Turbo? Ive seen some of the cars he has worked on, and they have big alloy front mount IC's, and some have got bigger or hybrid turbo's, large bore s/s exhausts, and even Nitrous fitted. There are a few 306 DT's with over 140bhp, and they should be quite rapid, given the torque figures?

al_roverMG · Post by **al_roverMG** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:17 am

but steve there are guys with 25's and mg ZR's with close on 140 bhp and the L series kicks out a healthy lump more torque than the 306 engine does.

At the end of the day each to their own with the DV thing. I mean if we are going to point and laugh at diesels with them on then we should do the same with petrol engines with them on as the atmospheric ones are just as pointless on a petrol car IMO.

Hughes_16 · Post by **Hughes_16** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:51 pm

Mot & tax? colour, mileage, doors the usual etc...

I would happily take it off if you want rid?

C2K · Post by **C2K** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:16 pm

Derv Doctor had a HDi with 190 brake. It had a custom map, I/c, turbo etc etc and nitrous too if memory serves.

There is a guy who is up to 140 at the moment before his VNT is fitted and mapped, but his economy is already down from 52MPg to 40MPG so what's the point?

One of derv doc's staff had a DT with 160ish brake IIRC too. My point is though, that's not what he offers to his customers. Sure they can buy them, but the hybrid HDi turbos cost more than half the cost of a 306 HDi to buy.

He just makes a killing off peddling chav shite to the idiots who buy it!

Aquila · Post by **Aquila** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:20 am

Not being too hot on forced-induction engines, I seem to remember that the atmospheric dump (originally flutter-) valve was developed for the removal of turbo-lag on the S1 Audi Quattro rally car. On throttle opening, an injector blew neat fuel into the compressor chamber to compensate for the delay in the cylinder injectors's response to the surge of compressed air. If the throttle was rapidly closed (as in blipped down-shifts or cadence drifting) the fuel-rich charge would back-up and fry the airbox and filters. The flutter valve allowed this charge to be dumped into the exhaust manifold, hence the gouts of flame from the tail pipes of S1's and early S2's. Later mods saw a waste-gate pipe run out under the side of the car and a flame-arrester that made the classic 'Cossie Chitter' and the 'Quattro Moo'.
Dump valves on modern 'lagless' turbos are therefore a waste of energy as they rob the turbo of rotation speed and actually cause a lagless turbo to lag!

If you want a real kick-in-the-pants, get rid of all the electronics and fit a Shorrock two-stage two-speed supercharger with a single 2 inch SU. Won't work on diesels, but if you want to sit behind a mobile paraffin stove, buy a Massey Ferguson!

Friggerpants · Post by **Friggerpants** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:23 am

http://www.zen19051.zen.co.uk/gallery.htm

monkey magic · Post by **monkey magic** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:52 am

Rover/MG 2 litre TD (Fitted) Rov/MG2 Â£285

hmm.

nother question for yous then saying as im now playing with ideas on what to do with this mowtah.

how hard of a conversion is it to drop the 220 TD engine for a 2ltr Turbo Petrol engine ?? ive been told the wiring is a mother hen and the fuel tank needs changed but is it worth it ?

Post by **Punx0r** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:01 pm

Depending on the car, it'd probably be easier to just buy a 2.0 turbo car...

M-Tek Performance · Post by **M-Tek Performance** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:39 pm

Aquila wrote:Not being too hot on forced-induction engines, I seem to remember that the atmospheric dump (originally flutter-) valve was developed for the removal of turbo-lag on the S1 Audi Quattro rally car. On throttle opening, an injector blew neat fuel into the compressor chamber to compensate for the delay in the cylinder injectors's response to the surge of compressed air. If the throttle was rapidly closed (as in blipped down-shifts or cadence drifting) the fuel-rich charge would back-up and fry the airbox and filters. The flutter valve allowed this charge to be dumped into the exhaust manifold, hence the gouts of flame from the tail pipes of S1's and early S2's. Later mods saw a waste-gate pipe run out under the side of the car and a flame-arrester that made the classic 'Cossie Chitter' and the 'Quattro Moo'.
Dump valves on modern 'lagless' turbos are therefore a waste of energy as they rob the turbo of rotation speed and actually cause a lagless turbo to lag!

If you want a real kick-in-the-pants, get rid of all the electronics and fit a Shorrock two-stage two-speed supercharger with a single 2 inch SU. Won't work on diesels, but if you want to sit behind a mobile paraffin stove, buy a Massey Ferguson!

The chatter is caused by the charge air hitting the compressor wheel blades, not by a flutter valve or dump valve or anything else for that matter.

the seperate pipe would've been a screamer pipe for the external wastegate, which vents off excess boost pressure when (often) external wastegate opened.

dump valves can actually cause lag. the valve isnt there to decrease lag but to actually preserve the turbo, stopping the charge air hitting it and damaging it (quite rare i've found). Dump valves can momentarily over speed the turbo. I know of a car that when changing gear, the turbo is pushing through enough air to stop the dump valve closing quick enough, so the lag is momentarily increased. this should be rectified with a stiffer spring fitted.

monkey magic · Post by **monkey magic** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:39 pm

Ok Ignor whatever arguments ive started I had the car round my mates garage last nite and im going to convert it to a 2ltr turbo and work on it as a project for next year.

Basically just going to strip the interior, fix all bodywork, get it painted and 2ltr turbo it ( petrol of course ) then get it on track... probably cost me a few grand but it will be spaced over the year so it wont be that bad.

anyone on here done a diesel to petrol converion before ?

214_si · Post by **214_si** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:44 pm

td to petrol - 2k

coupe turbo - Â£800

know what id rather do

monkey magic · Post by **monkey magic** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:15 pm

everyone goes for the cheaper option but this is actually something i would enjoy doing money isnt really the problem. plus I like the bubble shapeas oposed to the coupe..