Ã‚Â£6000 Rover or an S4

98Ti · Post by **98Ti** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:38 pm

As I've mentioned in past posts I would like to build a very strong engine good for about 350 bhp and put it into a 420 bubble with a ZS 180 body to bring it up to date(ish) and to my guessing by the time the body is modded and painted, forged engine, new management, suspension, brakes and wheels this is going to be getting on for Â£6000 (please correct me if I'm way off).

BUT

An audi S4 2.7 bi turbo can be had for similar money.

Â£6000 Rover 400 or an S4 (which will obviously have much room for modification)

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Ben Cole · Post by **Ben Cole** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:45 pm

Impossible to answer IMHO because it's down to personal taste and how much hassle you're willing to put up with.

B5 S4 can be had cheap but they can be horrifically expensive to maintain (properly)

The Rover route is far more individual that's for sure.

mach1rob · Post by **mach1rob** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:48 pm

Depends if you want to regain some of the outlay back if you sell, as you'll never get back what you spend on a Rover, the Audi you'd probably get a fair chunk back come sale time

rover220 · Post by **rover220** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:48 pm

will you have any funds left to mod the S4?

think id go for the rover though, done properly theres no reason it wont be reliable for miles and miles. i recon itd be more fun too.

BrackenFox · Post by **BrackenFox** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:49 pm

Depends if you ever want to sell it and get even a tiny portion of your money back.

Were it me, and given the choice of the two, I'd probably go for the Rover*. But then again, I'm crackers.

Plus, the S4's I've driven bored me stupid. Nice and quick, very well made, but I just found them rather bland.

* - For Â£6k though, I'd be going for a nicely modded (and probably supercharged) SD1 Vitesse.

98Ti · Post by **98Ti** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:54 pm

I would thrive on having a project car, it's been a long time since I've had anything to get my teath stuck into amd I supose going the 420 turbo route would avoid having to shell out all the money in one hit.

I'm not to botheed about resale value as I'm renowned for running cars untill the die and go for scrap.

I think my biggest concern is how I will feel after spending so much time, money and effort on the car only to get dicked by a lightly modded s4.

rover220 · Post by **rover220** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:57 pm

98Ti wrote:I would thrive on having a project car, it's been a long time since I've had anything to get my teath stuck into amd I supose going the 420 turbo route would avoid having to shell out all the money in one hit.

I'm not to botheed about resale value as I'm renowned for running cars untill the die and go for scrap.

I think my biggest concern is how I will feel after spending so much time, money and effort on the car only to get dicked by a lightly modded s4.

but imagine the feeling when you inflatable dinghy other more exotic cars

98Ti · Post by **98Ti** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:14 pm

Just how fast do you think a 350bhp Rover 400 would be?

BrackenFox · Post by **BrackenFox** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:15 pm

98Ti wrote:Just how fast do you think a 350bhp Rover 400 would be?

Fast enough to be rather a lot of fun!

rover220 · Post by **rover220** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:19 pm

98Ti wrote:Just how fast do you think a 350bhp Rover 400 would be?

itd certainly be very very quick

i bet it would weigh 500kg less than an s4 too?

98Ti · Post by **98Ti** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:30 pm

I think my head is getting in the way of my heart, I love Rovers, they're great cars, ever since my bro bought a brand new 92 420gsi I've been hooked, I just can't get my head around the fact that I'd be spending Â£6k on a Â£300 car, lol.

Then on the other hand, I personally know people who have blown near on Â£30K on 1.1 Saxos slowing them down with big wheels, big body kits, Fake dump valves and I.C.E, so in the 400's case its good value for money I guess.

220Si · Post by **220Si** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:47 pm

a Â£6K S4 will very rough

shen · Post by **shen** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:09 pm

Audi S4 and coupe tubbys have very similar IRL performance, obviously build quality or comfort/extras and all that come into it but it all depends on what you want the car for. If you've got a further Â£4k to make the S4 good then S4 all the way....my personal opinion ... get something you want that's cheap (if thats possible) like a coupe turbo and spend a fraction making it fun and correct.

you could happily do all that and still have a few grand left.

it's entirely your choice .. whats gonna make you happiest? It's not our money and we will deffo have different opinions and tastes

calibrax · Post by **calibrax** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:26 pm

350bhp through the front wheels... make sure you have a big tyre and clutch budget

Berger · Post by **Berger** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:33 pm

Buy a 'Teg for handling, or a Scooby for power instead.

Post by **MarkCoupe** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:36 pm

350hp front driver on the road? No, trust me itll just tripe n onions you off. 280 Max.

ryan_220 · Post by **ryan_220** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:43 am

MarkCoupe wrote:350hp front driver on the road? No, trust me itll just tripe n onions you off. 280 Max.

How so, my mate has a VR6 supercharged golf running around 300hp an open diff and that is ace puts the power down sweet as a nut. Could do with and LSD if iam honest.

A rover with 350hp good tyres and a good LSD eg Quaife or Type B TorSen would be sweet.
+ If you have 350hp your be running DTA s60 or the like and can run with tracktion control if need be, so you should put the power down ok not in 1st tho

Its just down to how much you use your lead foot at the end of the day.

Post by **SubCat001** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:03 am

TBH I would want to spend a lot more on an S4. Then you have to take into account general maintance, not to mention should you want to tune it. An Audi will cost a lot more than a Rover. Maybe if you had Â£10k to burn.

ryan_220 wrote:
MarkCoupe wrote:350hp front driver on the road? No, trust me itll just tripe n onions you off. 280 Max.
How so, my mate has a VR6 supercharged golf running around 300hp an open diff and that is ace puts the power down sweet as a nut. Could do with and LSD if iam honest.

I can confirm the said car is a track beast. Has no problem nailling higherpower 4wd cars out of corners.

I think drivability is largely in the setup. All or nothing turbo with a huge kick of torque will light the tyres up. Nice smooth linear power delivery and this isn't so much of an issue.

Null_Byte · Post by **Null_Byte** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:05 am

End of the day, it will most probably set you back a lot more than 6K, because once a project it will absorb all your time and money.

Personally I'd take the rover, because I'm nuts.

If I had my thinking head on, I would get niether, and pick up something like an old volvo, as you can tune them to 300 odd hp for a few hundred quid. Thats fast enough to wee over most things, while keeping the whole sleeper thing going on. Also a damm site easier and cheaper than tuning up a rover.

Depends totally on what you prefer.

Post by **MarkCoupe** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:00 am

OK, this is my opinion only, this isn't meant to insult anyone but just explain why i think its odd people aim for 350hp. I see alot of people saying theyd like 350hp, but most of them have nowhere near 350hp as it is, alot of them are running just fairly stock t16s. You wouldnt go out and buy 10 puppies, 4 aquariums, 6 kittens and a hamster one day if you decided you wanted pets. So why does everybody want to take giant leaps of power in the worst drivetrain format of them all.

I have driven a 280+hp FWD car with full suspension set up, polybushes programmable ecu which was very well mapped, and an LSD and although i was incredibly impressed with the mapping, the power, smoothness and also the fact it was insanely fast in the top two gears considering how long geared it was (K7 gearbox) i just couldnt see the point in that much power in the first 3 gears, the front just lifted up and traction was(as the owner admits) "abismal".

A good example is the video of the 320hp LSD Escort that races a stock EVO GSR 276. It takes the escort till 146mph to overtake it and the guys all proud and bragging about it, but tbh he just makes himself look like an idiot as its just taken him till the EVOs run out of gears to catch him up, hardly an achievement.

I just think people that have not experienced these levels of power should think a bit more about it. Assuming theyre starting from scratch what if they get to 350 and think , this is just way too much power for the road in front drive format, then they turn down the boost so its running say 280 and think, wow this is just about controllable, and bloody rapid. In which case theyll have probably wasted circa Â£1500 getting to 350 when with fewer mods and expense 280 is achievable. How can you want something that you dont know anything about. I can understand the kid in us all wanting masses of power, but im afraid from my own experience, on the road in anything less than bone dry good surface its just gonna be frustrating at anything over 300lb.ft and roughly 300hp.

I dont think FWD tuning is pointless, just people have to realise that there are limitations.

I wish people good luck with all their projects and its great to see people pushing the boundaries.

Mark

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:46 pm

I have had a 350hp FWD car on the road for quite a while, and I've built a couple more - but without wanting to sound like a stuck record the Honda B series (or even K series) appears to be hte way forward

Because they rev so high its very easy to have them streetable, Ie 300+ hp means exceeding 7000rpm which you dont do on a daily basis on the road.
BUT - the 360hp target is in itself only a small part of the equation - brakes, suspension, countering torque steer, traction delivery all need to be taken into account as well.

Look at Eddies car here for an idea of what we did to make a true 300+hp daily driver
http://www.rt2468abcd.r8technology.co.uk/viewtopi ... highlight=

Mark

martinhodge · Post by **martinhodge** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:46 pm

yes very nice lol very nice indeed , runs out to work on car a bit more .

98Ti · Post by **98Ti** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:20 pm

Some very good advice there peeps.

I think 350 bhp was in my head as it is very achievable and with the correct mapping and traction control be a good driver still, as said though I've not driven a 350 bhp Rover to experiance the power but having owned and driven other 350bhp 2wd cars I do understand that drivability can be dodgy if not thought out properly.

Vovlo was mentioned, I did think about an 850 T5 estate but I just can't get around the butt ugly shape. If I could afford a V70 or something newer that'd be a different matter - but I can't

Well, I guess this is just going to be one of those things I ponder on for ages and then realise I've gone and blown Â£10 on a 420, lol.

What shall be shall be.........

hoody · Post by **hoody** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:10 pm

you could pick up a good c70 volvo t5 for that money and with only a chip and tune you are over 300bhp

98Ti · Post by **98Ti** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:30 pm

hoody wrote:you could pick up a good c70 volvo t5 for that money and with only a chip and tune you are over 300bhp

Yeah, they're nice cars, no good for hauling kids around though, hence a 600 rather than a coupe.

Anthonyti · Post by **Anthonyti** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:41 pm

didn't Raistlin have a 350 bhp 620 Ti ?

perhaps he might comment on what they're like to drive as a daily runaround (fast prolly LOL)

John W · Post by **John W** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:49 pm

The rover will be faster than the s4. I had a play with my mates B7 S4 (4.2 V8 ) and pulled away and I think they've got iro 80bhp more than the old 2.7 bi-turbo.

As for it been undriveable, really depends on the conditions tbh, if you run an electronic boost controller you can just run it on low boost for the bumpy back roads or when its wet / damp.

If I was gonna do it all again I think I'd either aim for more power (400+) or would probably stick for 300 as it can be done alot cheaper than 350.

shen · Post by **shen** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:50 pm

whats the cheapest you could turbo lotus elise or MGF for?

they would be FUUUUUUUUN!!!!!!

98Ti · Post by **98Ti** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:29 pm

John W wrote:
If I was gonna do it all again I think I'd either aim for more power (400+) or would probably stick for 300 as it can be done alot cheaper than 350.

Where would the money be saved? I was kinda thinking that If I was going for 300 I may as well go for 350 as the most expensive bits are needed for 300 anyhow aren't they?

I was thinking that for 350 I'd be needing:

Forged pistons and rods in fully rebuilt lightened and balance block.
Head work.
Cams
Larger Injectors (maybe fifth, or even eight need more info on this - Noob!)
Turbo
Elbow, downpipe + full sytem
Fuel pump
Gearbox
electronic boost controller
Aftermarket ECU

What from that list is missing fo 350 or could be removed to save money and get 300?

jimjimjeroo · Post by **jimjimjeroo** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:00 pm

schexy!!!!!

this is my mates S4, has been remapped and played with has big Porsche Cayenne brakes, and is pushin 350bhp

goes like the preverbial!

Sheaf · Post by **Sheaf** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:03 pm

I'd go for something else I think.

Spending Â£6k on a Â£800 car seems a bit mad to start with.
I like rovers, they're a hell of a lot of bang for the buck... if you spend Â£6k tuning one though you're kind of taking away one of their main assets.

Aiming for 350bhp in a fwd car also seems slightly mad to start with... I can understand when people mod, they aim a little higher, a little higher and eventually have loads of power, however to buy a car with the intension of going for big power from the offset, I'd be looking RWD.

For that kind of money I'd be tempted with either a Galant VR4 or a S14a 200SX. Both will generate more grip for that sort of power and both will be much cheaper to get to over 300bhp than a T16. I'd rather buy a car for Â£5k and spend Â£2k modding than buy a car for Â£1k and spend Â£6k modding myself.

jimjimjeroo · Post by **jimjimjeroo** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:13 pm

get your self a nice sapphire cossie 4x4

Null_Byte · Post by **Null_Byte** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:25 pm

98Ti wrote:
hoody wrote:you could pick up a good c70 volvo t5 for that money and with only a chip and tune you are over 300bhp
Yeah, they're nice cars, no good for hauling kids around though, hence a 600 rather than a coupe.

Try an S40 or something of that ilk, I can't remember what the large one is, s70? s80 something like that.

Cheapish, fast as standard, faster with a simple map. Job done.

A cossie is no better than a rover

, easier to get power from, but just its still a lot of messing about.

If you enjoy the tinkering side of course, then rovers arn't bad at all

98Ti · Post by **98Ti** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:43 pm

This question seems to have stured things up abit about where prioities should lie. I think as said in many posts the sensible thing would be to go out and buy a (please, please don't take this the wrong way) better car to start with.

Done the cozzy thing and hated the damned car, was a 375bhp RWD Saph and gave me nothing but heartache, empty wallet and broken bones.

I think the S4 is a fantastic car with lots of tuning potential but as said maybe a Â£6K S4 could be a pile of poo.

The Volvo is also a great base to start with - afterall, ford use the engine in both the ST focus and the new Mondeo. I like the V40 but thats not the 2.5 turbo is it?

200SX, also another great car, and not to pricey, Jap reliability and tuning a plenty, also come in a four door to fit the kiddies in (I think?)

Then we also have the likes of evo 4's and Scooby's to think abuot - wicked cars from the factory.

Lol, this could go on and on and on and on and on and on- I think you get the picture

bjrespect · Post by **bjrespect** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:05 am

1995 scooby sti version 4

Rovertech 2.0

Ã‚Â£6000 Rover or an S4

Ã‚Â£6000 Rover 420 or Audi S4

Â£6000 Rover or an S4