Mrs T's dead....

[Punx0r]

Having watched a few documentaries and the Newsnight special and learnt a bit more about what she actually did and said, I have to admit she was an impressive person. It was interesting to note what other MP's from various parties had to say about her.

No doubt she lost the plot at the end, though.

Compared to the likes of Blair it's refreshing to see someone act like they have a spine.

I forget the name of the Labour MP who made a point that I hadn't heard before: That if Scargill had been more concerned about achieving the best possible outcome, rather than gunning for outright victory then Maggie was pragmatic enough that she would have agreed to a compromise with him.

I'm undecided on the Poll Tax, I don't know enough about it. There was something about it was supposed to have worked in conjunction with some other benefit/tax break and not considered alone, which even ardent Tories considered unacceptably regressive. Judgement reserved.

Perhaps at some point in my life I will experience positive things done by a union. So far my observations have ranged from ineffectual to arrogant and harmful. There again, I'm not a them-and-us kind of person.

"No! No! No!"

[noonan mckane]

During Mrs Thatcher's term in office, of course we had the miner's strike, but I think a lot of people might have forgotten that the Ambulance Service and the Fire Service were on strike, also. (The Fire Service were striking for wage parity with the Police, while the Ambulance Service were on strike in protest against the privitisation of the NHS) I think the Fire Service might have fared better with this.....Dreadful, divisive times. My dad, a shop steward in the Ambulance Service, stood firm in defence of the NHS.

[noonan mckane]

Nowadays, it is absolutely essential for working people to belong to a trade union. Otherwise, they are at the complete mercy of their employer. Working class people who claim to mistrust the trade union movement have played into the hands of their masters, and are quietly betraying their brothers and sisters. You can believe this now or reject this now, but there will be a time in the future when it is proved to be true.

[Punx0r]

Indeed, Comrade!

[noonan mckane]

Hey, being a trade union member doesn't make you a communist, Punxy! It just levels the playing field a wee bit, when it comes to UK employment law, which most employers detest and will gladly ignore, if they're allowed to. Employers don't want workers who are efficient or productive so much as they want workers who are cheap. And unrepresented workers are the cheapest.

We're on the same side, Punx.

[1994 BRG Coupe]

I've been with my employer for 23 years. for the 1st 16 I was not in the union but the declining respect for employees and degradation of terms and conditions combined with an increasingly punitive management style forced my hand. I am sure i am not the only one. Sure the unions had far too much power and the disputes of the 70's damaged industry but now things have gone too far the other way.

[peteT16]

When I worked for British Airways, the BA management style was a great recruiter for the union.

[radddogg]

During Mrs Thatcher's term in office, of course we had the miner's strike, but I think a lot of people might have forgotten that the Ambulance Service and the Fire Service were on strike, also. (The Fire Service were striking for wage parity with the Police, while the Ambulance Service were on strike in protest against the privitisation of the NHS) I think the Fire Service might have fared better with this.....Dreadful, divisive times. My dad, a shop steward in the Ambulance Service, stood firm in defence of the NHS.

And we haven't had any strikes while Labour were in charge?

[Punx0r]

Just watched Bob Crow speak puts me right off the concept of Unions. I understand things used to be much worse. How is a "closed shop" justifiable?

[peteT16]

Just watched Bob Crow speak puts me right off the concept of Unions. I understand things used to be much worse. How is a "closed shop" justifiable?

Closed shops aren't justifiable, that's why they are now illegal

[Punx0r]

Fair point, just an example of the extreme attitude I tend to associate with past Union behavior.

You often see the need for a Union justified because of aggressive management, but I wonder how often this is just a vicious circle, with each antagonising the other and escalating the conflict.

Perhaps it's because I've never worked for a company managed by a selfish, megalomanic psychopath. I've worked for mostly small-medium companies, usually been on first-name terms with the upper management or directors and found them all to be fairly reasonable people if I view their situation objectively. I did used to think my bosses were incompetent and view it as a them-and-us situation, but I found this went away as I grew up.

[1994 BRG Coupe]

You probably are in a fortunate position. I work for a national company who recently stated in pay negotiations that "inflation is not relevant to pay". This is evidenced I supose in that whilst the majority of the workforce are being offered below inflation increases senior managers have been given well above inflation increases. I have to say also that small companies also abuse staff, a company I once worked for got people to work week-end overtime to finish an important contract. They had a company in to remove all the machinery and stock on the sunday night, then locked everyone out Monday morning and declared themselves bankrupt. They deliberately got people to work with no intention of paying them!

[Punx0r]

Yeah, that's circumstances where one particular cockend (or two) wants a smack in the mouth...

I don't mean to split hairs, but a lot of companies base pay rises on the Retail Price Index, not inflation. I've had this before at work.

People should lead by example, no matter what level they're at.

[noonan mckane]

During Mrs Thatcher's term in office, of course we had the miner's strike, but I think a lot of people might have forgotten that the Ambulance Service and the Fire Service were on strike, also. (The Fire Service were striking for wage parity with the Police, while the Ambulance Service were on strike in protest against the privitisation of the NHS) I think the Fire Service might have fared better with this.....Dreadful, divisive times. My dad, a shop steward in the Ambulance Service, stood firm in defence of the NHS.

And we haven't had any strikes while Labour were in charge?

Of course we have. You know we have. Strikes occur when industrial relations deteriorate. Public sector strikes are almost always politically motivated, though, and they can't be anything other than a consequence of 'Thatcherism'. The strikes I mentioned, you might have noticed, were all public sector strikes, which all had massive, far reaching consequences. Thatcher attempted to destroy the public sector and the public sector objected. The public didn't object, initially, but eventually realised that some things are too important to be entrusted to anybody other than the state. 'New Labour' took charge of a state with no real public sector, and the banks in control of the economy. What's so wrong with having a health service, electricity board, gas board, etc? Are there not millions of other markets that 'entrepreneurs' can make money out of, like they're always telling us they're so good at? We're all broadly agreed now, that we value public services far more than tuppence off our income tax.

[Punx0r]

No. Private capital allows far more investment than the government, which by definition has no money at all.

Strikes can only be a result of Thatcherism? So there were no strike before she took office?

Who enjoys having their holiday ruined when the BA union deliberately strikes (without even a majority ballot) at peak times?

[Din]

The public sector is FAR too big though..the puplic sector is bigger than the private... And puplic sector workers actually get a better deal than those of us in the private sector, and they have the cheak to strike when they are bought in line with us... I could slap the teachers I can tell you.

[vinny19791]

Nowadays, it is absolutely essential for working people to belong to a trade union. Otherwise, they are at the complete mercy of their employer. Working class people who claim to mistrust the trade union movement have played into the hands of their masters, and are quietly betraying their brothers and sisters. You can believe this now or reject this now, but there will be a time in the future when it is proved to be true.

I'm the CWU rep for my office at work, responsible for over 100 members, I get to travel to meetings all over, days in London etc. also have good learning opportunities and have a few different union qualifications. I'm the middle man between management and my members- a voice.

Unions are important now more than ever, especially in the postal service, one more strike else we are all doomed.

Watch this space.

[noonan mckane]

No. Private capital allows far more investment than the government, which by definition has no money at all.

Strikes can only be a result of Thatcherism? So there were no strike before she took office?

Who enjoys having their holiday ruined when the BA union deliberately strikes (without even a majority ballot) at peak times?

Punx, in the wee small hours last night I rattled off a couple of paragraphs in reply to this, but I looked at it again and I thought I'd just delete it. You and I will have to agree to disagree. I like you too much to risk making an enemy just because we're at different ends of the political spectrum. You've always been courteous and helpful when I've been in communication with you and I absolutely respect that, even though everything you believe is utterly wrong. (JOKING! I'm joking.) Let's stick to what we know, ie being pals and that.

[Punx0r]

Not a problem, I enjoy a healthy debate

[Pinkie15]

The public sector is FAR too big though..the puplic sector is bigger than the private... And puplic sector workers actually get a better deal than those of us in the private sector, and they have the cheak to strike when they are bought in line with us... I could slap the teachers I can tell you.

Totally misses the point Noonan raised in an earlier post on this thread, and this makes me sad/angry/cry and to my mind is the ultimate legacy of Thatcherism (them and us).

Everyone (seems to) fall into this public vs private sector argument. Generally private sector now moans that public sector have it too good (decent pay, decent working hours, decent pension (generally)).

Up until middish 90s the opposite of this was true, i.e. you were far better off working in the private sector. However, with the demise of the unions, the decline hurried along by Thatcherism imo, private sector employees have lost any decent voice/bargaining power with their respective management. This has readily allowed most private sector companies to slash pay and conditions (whilst, in the main, the board handsomely reward themselves (and shareholders) for often questionnable performance).

The result of this is many working families also require "top ups" from the state. So not only has Thatcherism (largely) destroyed the unions it has also allowed the private sector to transfer some of it's corporate responsibilities (wages & pension) to the public sector, thereby costing the public purse even more.

Why not flip the argument on it's head ? Instead of desiring that benefits get cut etc..., to "encourage" people back into work why not encourage the private sector to reward it's employees by paying a decent wage and having a decent pension provision to look after their employees in retirement. Such encouragement could be done through corporation tax, a X% rebate if average employee wage is X% greater than than the average wage, etc... An even larger rebate if the lowest paid workers in the organistion are at, or above, average wage. This would give working people money in their pockets, which should help expand the economy (where that money ultimately ends up is another discussion), and would shift the gap between working and benefit funded living in favour of those who go out and work.

The next time BA, etc..., go on strike, instead of moaning about them ruining your holiday, why not think, hey they're actually standing up for themselves and their rights. Why tf do I never do the same when my employer is shafting me and my colleagues ? Oh yeah, because we have no collective voice/bargaining position, we're just a load of individuals (divide and conquer, been working for millenia that one).

[Punx0r]

I completely agree if the private sector has the spare cash to pay for these things. Sometimes it seems a big company is struggling to stay afloat, then suddenly there's a crippling expensive strike because everyone would like a 10% pay rise and BUPA.

I'm not saying a company would be above crying poverty when it wasn't strictly true. You rarely (ever?) see company financial figures brought out in pay/benefit disputes, though. Just "we want" and "you can't have" -> strike -> compromise -> return of status quo + tiny change

There are situations where unpopular decisions have to be made for the greater good. Better IMO to freeze pay for a couple of years (across the board, I add) and ensure the company continues to trade, than to risk bankrupting a historic employer.

Is Britain truly wealthy enough to sustain an ever-increasing standard of living that most expect?

[Din]

Yeah, perhaps im looking at it from a completely different view point really.... but lets face it, the puplic sector (which is valuable), does cost a fortune.. it does not generate any income for the country, so having a private sector that is now smaller and not able to pay for the puplic sector is unsustainable, hence the changes that have been happening in the puplic sector regarding pay and pensions... simple fact is, it has to happen, thats why it makes me cross when suddenly strikes happen.... and i could still slap the teachers, the rest of us need to work too, and if the schools shut then it screws us up too