Stick with D16 or not

Post by **BazR** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:07 am

Having inspected my new toy, it needs a bit of work, and I fancy a new colour for it too. To be honest though, Im not into Honda at all, I would much prefer a K series in there, but not sure if its worth the effort. I will be stripping the shell anyway, so Im thinking laying in a K series loom and such would be an easy step when Im at that stage.

Opinions?

Sheaf · Post by **Sheaf** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:35 am

Personally, I loved my old D16, and that was only a SOHC. Great little engine and very tough (I bought it on 90k and between me and Dan it's pretty much had 50k miles of hard driving since, and still runs great).

Is it DOHC? In a stripped out GTI I'd want a DOHC D16 and push for as close to 160bhp as I could get. TBH I dont think putting a K in would really get any gains unless you went 1.8 vvc, and even then it'd be a lot of effort for marginal gains.

Grow to love the Honda

618ireland · Post by **618ireland** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:00 am

It's not a Rover with a Honda engine in it Baz

Post by **Cableguy** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:50 am

Just what characteristic of the K series to you prefer to the D series ?

Sounds like a lot of work for a downgrade and a drop in reliability if you ask me

200coupe · Post by **200coupe** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:43 pm

Id say the same, ive had a d16 5 door & coupe.

Great engine that just begs to be thrashed, id rather have a d16 motor than a k series motor (except maby a vvc).

Wouldn't it be a complete pain to convert it to a k series anyway due to different engine mounting points, ecu etc

Post by **IrishRover** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:48 pm

Sounds like a completely dumb thing to do. I'd no idea you were obviously so bored!

richard moss · Post by **richard moss** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:11 pm

If I had a choice of a reliable D16 or a fragile k series, i know which I'd take! There are loads of D16 tuning bits available, too - especially from the USA.

Post by **MarkCoupe** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:20 pm

Dude........cant believe your asking. D16 all the way, they magic, my cousin gave me a 216gti, with no oil or coolant (no idea how long itd been that way either) and it lasted for me for 45k (up to 190000 miles), only had to give up when removal lorry banana'd it.

Could always

190bhp stage 1

stefaclese · Post by **stefaclese** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:40 pm

K series all the way!

You all seem to be forgetting that Baz is a K fanboy like me and as such knows how to make a K series reliable, although I'm not totally convinced of the proposed engine change unless you have most of the bits for the conversion in the first place.

Practically everything under the bonnet would have to be changed, and if it has PAS then that'd have to be changed too.

I would opt for a solid cam K series over a VVC setup if its purely going to get trackday abuse, all depends what your thinking is with regard to the engine and how far your thinking of taking it.

As said though, quick, cheap and cheerful gains can be had on the DOHC Honda lump if that floats your boat.

Post by **Punx0r** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:49 pm

I'd stick with the Honda until I got fed up replacing distributors and various electrical components

marc9584 · Post by **marc9584** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:07 pm

MarkCoupe wrote:Dude........cant believe your asking. D16 all the way, they magic, my cousin gave me a 216gti, with no oil or coolant (no idea how long itd been that way either) and it lasted for me for 45k (up to 190000 miles), only had to give up when removal lorry banana'd it.

Could always

190bhp stage 1

I really like that Gti is that anybodys on here?

Post by **MarkCoupe** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:29 pm

marc9584 wrote:
MarkCoupe wrote:Dude........cant believe your asking. D16 all the way, they magic, my cousin gave me a 216gti, with no oil or coolant (no idea how long itd been that way either) and it lasted for me for 45k (up to 190000 miles), only had to give up when removal lorry banana'd it.

Could always

190bhp stage 1

I really like that Gti is that anybodys on here?

Thats the race car we sponsor at Silverstorm

TheRealStig · Post by **TheRealStig** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:50 pm

That GTI is cool...D16 anyday over the K-Series IMO..plus for future plans, there much more tuneable surely?

stefaclese · Post by **stefaclese** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:57 pm

Both engines are just as tuneable IMO, the difference is that the D16 has lots of aftermarket stuff from the states at very low prices (and arguably much lower quality often).

Thanks to the K being in a lot of Lotus, Caterham's and other kit cars theres a lot of options out there.

TheRealStig · Post by **TheRealStig** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:01 pm

stefaclese wrote:Both engines are just as tuneable IMO, the difference is that the D16 has lots of aftermarket stuff from the states at very low prices (and arguably much lower quality often).

Thanks to the K being in a lot of Lotus, Caterham's and other kit cars theres a lot of options out there.

Good point,

But with the D16 being Honda parts are going to be alot cheaper and more readily available

216GTI Mugen Power!

stefaclese · Post by **stefaclese** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:36 pm

Lol, well it depends whether you mean genuine OEM Honda parts or not, as those most certainly WON'T be cheap!

Post by **MarkCoupe** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:41 pm

stefaclese wrote:Lol, well it depends whether you mean genuine OEM Honda parts or not, as those most certainly WON'T be cheap!

They are cheaper in fairness, you try getting a rear lower arm for a Honda accord, and one for a Ti.

stefaclese · Post by **stefaclese** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:54 pm

And how much do they charge for a new distributor unit for a D16?

Post by **MarkCoupe** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:59 pm

stefaclese wrote:And how much do they charge for a new distributor unit for a D16?

Slightly less than a full gasket set and headgasket change

Post by **BazR** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:47 pm

MarkCoupe wrote:
stefaclese wrote:And how much do they charge for a new distributor unit for a D16?

Slightly less than a full gasket set and headgasket change

Not in my case

but that is besides the point.

I dont like Honda, even though its the DOHC, I still dont like it. I have also driven it and its as dead as hell.
I have not inspected it though, with 10 cars in my possesion I am finding it very difficult to work on them all at the same time.
When the GTI is brought it for its strip, its not really going to be much effort IMO, to replace everything with K series. Even more so if its going to be purely a track car, I can leave out everything I dont need.

Anti Honda? no

I see the other side of the coin obviously. The range of tuning gear for the D series is great and the reliability, but with having lost my virginity with K series I feel more secure having it onboard.
Indeed I drive a D series for 90 miles with no oil and water and it still ran, much to my amazement.

Its been 13 years with K's vs none with a D, I hope some can appreciate that. Im no master of tuning a K, but I know what I need to in regards to keeping it reliable, much as some experts would argue, we all have our own ways.

As per boredom, Colin this isnt the case. People have different things to turn to for relaxation. I describe my working day as difficult and stressful, with the addition of others around me for hours on end. To be able to clear off into my garage is as close to heaven as I am going to get I think. I am looking forward to completing the projects I have lined up.

The other side of this thread is that I dont find much in the line of D series information on Rovertech, considering there is such a biased opinion. Maybe if some examples were found I could appreciate the D series and tune it.

Althought my backround would place me on the K series team, it would be pointless of me to post the question if I already knew the answer. I am 50/50 on the matter, so convince me!

Null_Byte · Post by **Null_Byte** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:48 pm

MarkCoupe wrote:
stefaclese wrote:Lol, well it depends whether you mean genuine OEM Honda parts or not, as those most certainly WON'T be cheap!

They are cheaper in fairness, you try getting a rear lower arm for a Honda accord, and one for a Ti.

The Ti one is cheaper?

I have found almost universally that the dealer only rover parts are cheaper than dealer only honda, despite the only difference being the box it comes in...

Post by **MarkCoupe** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:50 pm

Rimmer lower arm is more expensive than my local Honda, recent experience for a customer.

Baz, it shouldnt be dead as hell, my 216 GTi was one of the most fun and mental hatches ive ever owned, and id have one again in a heartbeat. If it feels anything less than far more fun than a 143vvc then theres something wrong.

Post by **BazR** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:55 pm

MarkCoupe wrote:Rimmer lower arm is more expensive than my local Honda, recent experience for a customer.

Baz, it shouldnt be dead as hell, my 216 GTi was one of the most fun and mental hatches ive ever owned, and id have one again in a heartbeat. If it feels anything less than far more fun than a 143vvc then theres something wrong.

As I mentioned, I have not got looking at her yet. I have driven it just the once. It did not get any better as the revs increased. I have got a full service kit sitting there but apart from that is there anything you learnt in your ownship which could attribute to the car being really down on power?
Also, did you tune yours to any degree?

Post by **IrishRover** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:10 pm

If the engine felt dead to you then I bet you never got anywhere near the red line.
If you did, then there's something very wrong with that car. If you've only driven the car once, and I expect it wasn't a long test drive, you haven't got to know the car at all.

What you're proposing to do is dumb, dumb, dumb. It's a ridiculous proposition and no one should have to argue the case for not doing what you're suggesting. Of course the irony is that my continuing to post in this thread actually gives the notion some credence.
You got the car at a good price, if you don't like it now the sensible thing to do is to sell it, make a little profit and use it to buy a K series engined car.

There's probably not a lot of point in saying "no offence intended" because I know my words are harsh, but for what it's worth, it's the idea I'm aghast at, and it's not a personal attack on you.

Stealth213S · Post by **Stealth213S** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:52 pm

I can see both sides to this. I've spent about the same amount of time driving D series as I have K-series. The K is a far more tractable engine whereas the D is flat unless you're hitting the top of the rev range, so overall I'd prefer the K for driving.
Both engines are lightweight for the power they produce and the tuning capability of a D16a9 and VVC are very similar for spending similar amounts.

Reliability wise, I've never had a problem with a K-series and I've done a fair mileage with them so I do agree with BazR that reliability is fine with the proper measures in place.
I've had less reliability from my D-series tbh. My 216GTi SOHC blew on the motorway and ended up being stripped by syzsounds

and I've had various ignition problems on D13s.
Generally the D16 should be more reliable, but its not a certainty.

Its a hard decision. I'd maybe say that a 3dr with a 143vvc and 160 manifold would be the best way to go and a bit different to the norm.
But then the D16 I'll be ending up with sounds just as interesting.

Jonny 5 · Post by **Jonny 5** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:15 pm

stefaclese wrote:And how much do they charge for a new distributor unit for a D16?

$175

TheRealStig · Post by **TheRealStig** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:08 pm

I understand what the pro K-series people are saying but surely that defeats the object of buying it in the first place?

richard moss · Post by **richard moss** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:17 pm

Punx0r wrote:I'd stick with the Honda until I got fed up replacing distributors and various electrical components

Easier, quicker and cheaper than head gaskets!

stefaclese · Post by **stefaclese** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:12 pm

BrackenFox · Post by **BrackenFox** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:32 pm

MarkCoupe wrote:If it feels anything less than far more fun than a 143vvc then theres something wrong.

If it feels anything like as fun as a 143VVC in the same car, then there's something very seriously wrong with the VVC.

I've had both SOHC and DOHC versions of the D16, and felt them all rather lacking. Horses for courses though, some people love the revvy nature of the Honda lumps, I'm just not one of them.

The D16 is a lot cheaper to tune, I'll give it that, but none of them even made me want to try. I've had a lot more problems with the Honda engined cars that I've had (including Honda lumps in Hondas) than the K-series ones, even counting the current VVC's intermittent starting woes.

Regarding the original question though - No way in hell would I go through all the hassle of converting from Honda to Rover power, I think you're ever so slightly crackers.

Much better off selling it and buying something already K-powered if that's your thing, although it does sound if there's something wrong with the D16 if it doesn't suddenly go nutty at the top of the rev range, which is where all (and I mean all, there's not a lot below that!) the power is.

Post by **MarkCoupe** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:44 pm

BrackenFox wrote:
MarkCoupe wrote:If it feels anything less than far more fun than a 143vvc then theres something wrong.
If it feels anything like as fun as a 143VVC in the same car, then there's something very seriously wrong with the VVC.

I've had both SOHC and DOHC versions of the D16, and felt them all rather lacking. Horses for courses though, some people love the revvy nature of the Honda lumps, I'm just not one of them.

The D16 is a lot cheaper to tune, I'll give it that, but none of them even made me want to try. I've had a lot more problems with the Honda engined cars that I've had (including Honda lumps in Hondas) than the K-series ones, even counting the current VVC's intermittent starting woes.

Regarding the original question though - No way in hell would I go through all the hassle of converting from Honda to Rover power, I think you're ever so slightly crackers. Much better off selling it and buying something already K-powered if that's your thing, although it does sound if there's something wrong with the D16 if it doesn't suddenly go nutty at the top of the rev range, which is where all (and I mean all, there's not a lot below that!) the power is.

OK, i guess its all down to personal taste, my 216 GTi was identical in acceleration to my mates coupe vvc.

BrackenFox · Post by **BrackenFox** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:55 pm

MarkCoupe wrote:OK, i guess its all down to personal taste, my 216 GTi was identical in acceleration to my mates coupe vvc.

To be fair though, a 216GTi is lighter than a coupe, and geared a fair bit lower, so it's no surprise they're pretty damn close. I thought you were comparing the same engine in the same car.

Personal taste is a big thing, I think it's quite hard to find someone who likes both the Rover and the Honda nasps equally. Nothing like the good old Rover vs Honda debate to stir up a long thread.

Post by **MarkCoupe** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:05 pm

BrackenFox wrote: I thought you were comparing the same engine in the same car.

You mean like VVC Coupe vs VVC Coupe ?

Pretty boring dont you think?

I think i like T16s as much as Honda engines. Just had sooooooooooooooo many headgasket failiures at work, and in my own circle of family and friends, kindof tarnishes my view of K. I always said though, they are a great lump when they work. I do however think if someone has a d16 engine car, i wouldnt swap a K in.

BrackenFox · Post by **BrackenFox** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:16 pm

MarkCoupe wrote:You mean like VVC Coupe vs VVC Coupe ?

Pretty boring dont you think?

I meant if you had the same car, but one having a D16 and the other having a 143 VVC, all other things being equal.

I do however think if someone has a d16 engine car, i wouldnt swap a K in.

Absolutely agreed, I think you'd have to be a bit barking. But far from me to discourage the barking mad spirit, if it wasn't for that, Rover tuning as a whole probably wouldn't exist.

Post by **BazR** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:31 pm

Madness....

This

Is

Rovertech!

I take barely anyone is endorsing a Rover track car with a Rover engine in it.

I have everything here I need to do this, and the car is already half stripped, its not such a big operation.

I want to liver this car up with RT logo's and all that, but not with a feicing Honda engine in it

Rovertech 2.0

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