They all do that ~ Oh no they don't !

[MGJohn]

Posted for the benefit of all those with the "they all do that" [ TADT ] mindset and there are millyons of 'em in the former G and P ....

The AA were called out to a record breaker of over 14,000 breakdown call outs today in these adverse conditions.... every one a K-Series Rover apparently.

PHACT! ~ You better believe it! ...

Now for something completely different ...

More seriously, the aforemention TADT mindsetters will be delighted to hear the 'just in' news that thanks to a little effort from me, another K-Series Rover lives on and thrives following rectification of the "They all do that" CHG so called failure. It was not all plain sailing though.

The car being a 51 Reg Rover 45 I picked up for little outlay a few days ago. Having replaced this mess ( elastomer seal damage ) :~



with this :~



Then, reassembled the cylinder head after a clean up and then turned my attention to the Water Pump only to discover tell tale signs that it had been recently replaced with new so almost certainly was not the root cause of this car's gasket "failure" ... Hmmm ...back to the drawing board..

Manually rotated the engine several times to check for any metal to metal contact ~ all well there. I then did a Compression test and was delighted to record all four cylinders giving a healthy reading well within ten percent of 185 psi.



So, refitted, reassembled and connected all the various sensors, electrical and coolant hose connections and confidently filled the cooling system with 50-50 OAT recommended coolant. So far so good.

Reconnected the battery and turned the ignition key ~ engine fired up immediately ~ always satisfying when that happens. I allowed the engine to warm up and gave the throttle pedal an occasional prod to increase the revs... So far so good. After a while, the now warmed engine started to misfire at idle and would only clear when given higher revs... not good. Then I saw it. Imagine my disappointment after all my careful work to observe a pool of coolant under the engine on the gearbox side... even some coolant present trapped in the gearbox's webbing castings ... If that as not enough, the temperature gauge needle was reading a tad above the 'normal' position of just below midway... Oh dear ....

Getting dark now so used a torch to check where all that coolant was coming from.... lots of it...It was coming from the Cylinder Head well above the head gasket line ....... I'm now thinking cracked head probably caused by poor coolant mix freezing or no coolant at all, only water. I then used a small mirror to check more closely in the torch light and then pinpointed the source of the coolant escape route. The coolant was emerging under pressure from around and under the heads of the two 8mm bolts which secure the little alloy casting to the cylinder head where the top radiator hose locates along with heater hose and two engine management sensors.

As soon as I placed an 8mm socket on the bolt heads it was obvious that both were loose ~ not even finger tight! I tightened both of these bolts carefully, restarted the engine and carefully topped up the lost coolant with neat OAT coolant. Bled the system again and after a few minutes, the engine settled to a rock steady idle with not a trace of any misfires... In fact the engine was behaving like a smooth turbine which is typical of any well maintained healthy K-Series.

Next day in better sunlight, I had a close look at the area where the coolant was escaping. There were several tell tale stains showing clearly where .... I took a couple of before and after images of this area. Note coloured escaping coolant stains :~






Now, if anyone has read this far, a simple question:~

Did this gasket actually 'fail' or was it first damaged by loss of coolant leading to engine overheating?

Another question ~ why were those two 8mm bolts so loose ? They are usually stuck firm if they've never been disturbed since leaving the factory production line. I shall contact the previous owner about it. If he had worked on the car and done this ( unlikely ) or entrusted the work to a pro-outfit, those loose bolts did not just happen ... someone had loosened them. Were that not the case, the previous owner would still be happily driving this low mileage Rover 45 which had been in his family for years ....

Just to add ~ that little Rover 45 is now running superbly ... Good eh ...

Rejoice all you non-believers....
..

[Din]

The only reason those bolts would have been loose is because someone had been there before ! interesting that the water pump has been replaced... suggesting that perhaps the water pump has failed in the past and perhaps its all been apart before ?

Dunno, but glad your getting in to this K series hg melarkie it really is such a worthwhile job to do, and you can play detective for abit too

Also, the K series powerd cars i have owned have been really reliable for me, just keep an eye on things under the bonnet and keep it all up to scratch, i have a firm believe that if i look after the car, it will look after me.... (not always true ) but for the most part it is.

Lets have some proper pics of the 45 then John

[Roger Red Hat]

wiat a sec, so you think the hg was fine in the first place??

maybe the water leaked, someone tried to fix it by doing something up, instead made it worse and just decided to leave it.

either way someone has played about

coolant loss = problem.

edit

damn you din! beat me to it!

[Din]

wiat a sec, so you think the hg was fine in the first place??

Skim read fail

No look at it, its had it, John was getting at the reason the hg went

Go read it again Sam

[Roger Red Hat]

i read it all..but at the bottom i skimmed a bit as i was alredy thinking about writing my responce!

w/e the reason, the hg's are always the weak spot, and given any place to go due to coolant issues its normally this.

do agree with din tho, more pics Mr John.

[Leopold]

Don't it annoy ya, when something so simple has a couple of bolts that weren't tightened would make people think that coolant loss would be HG failure..

Same as me, on my K Series the coolant is spotless can even see the level on the tank.. The proper red/orange colour (OAT).. and doesn't leak at all.. Just shows ya if the engine has been well looked after it wont give you any problems (that's my motto)!!!

Nice work John..

[VVC MINI]

Brand new engine in my metro a 1.6 crate engine. Just turned 9000 miles and the head gasket failed last night. Only the weekend before i checked the oil and coolant level. They do seem to go on there own and im really pi££ed because i have 3 cars and none of them work now.

[Roger Red Hat]

Brand new engine in my metro a 1.6 crate engine. Just turned 9000 miles and the head gasket failed last night. Only the weekend before i checked the oil and coolant level. They do seem to go on there own and im really pi££ed because i have 3 cars and none of them work now.

i know the feeling!

if it was brand new? why did it not have the mls type?

[Leopold]

Brand new engine in my metro a 1.6 crate engine. Just turned 9000 miles and the head gasket failed last night. Only the weekend before i checked the oil and coolant level. They do seem to go on there own and im really pi££ed because i have 3 cars and none of them work now.

Its only done 9k that's strange.. I'm sure they don't pack up as soon as that..

[Din]

Dont be so sure... i saw an mgtf once... 5 miles on the clock (pdi) and the hg was buggerd

Quality in later cars from the factory was not fantastic...

[mike88]

Dont be so sure... i saw an mgtf once... 5 miles on the clock (pdi) and the hg was buggerd

Quality in later cars from the factory was not fantastic...

epic fail.

[VVC MINI]

What's a mis type?

[syzsounds]

What's a mis type?

MLS - Multi layer steel.

[VVC MINI]

It has the same gasket as the above engine has. Was a mems 2 engine.

[southside]

Loads of reasons why k-series gaskets can fail. Ragged from cold, Coolant loss, Elastomer seal wearing away e.t.c. As said they're a weak point. Many could of been prevented if MG-R had fitted a low coolant sesnor from the start though instead of just in facelift cars.

Im a lover of k-series. Once you get to know your way around them they're very easy to work on. HG change can be done in a few hours. I must of done 10 this year. Buy them cheap with HGF, few hours work and a tidy profit. Best one i did was the last car. 52 plate MG ZR 105, 42k miles. Payed £400 for it with eary signs of HGF, oil/coolant mix. £40 for full MLS gasket set, £20 for new waterpump, couple of quid for a new thermostat and half a days work. Sold it a week later for £1250.

[bjrespect]

as above money makers unless you have bought one thats got so hot there is 3 to 4mm grovves in the head and the liners have picked upo

[Limecat]

The AA were called out to a record breaker of over 14,000 breakdown call outs today in these adverse conditions.... every one a K-Series Rover apparently.

Please don't make up facts for the sake of a story.

I used to do logistics for the AA about 4/5 years ago. I still get text messages from an automated system that lets me know when the logger is hitting the fan. It did happen on the 7th of November though but that's the last time.

[MGJohn]

i read it all..but at the bottom i skimmed a bit as i was alredy thinking about writing my responce!

w/e the reason, the hg's are always the weak spot, and given any place to go due to coolant issues its normally this.

do agree with din tho, more pics Mr John.

There's a valid reason the cylinder head gasket is a weak spot .... IN ANY ENGINE ..

If say the block or head were the weak spot and the gasket uber strong ..... Don't go there.

More pictures coming up ...

Don't it annoy ya, when something so simple has a couple of bolts that weren't tightened would make people think that coolant loss would be HG failure..

That's because of the TADT mindset. Everyone knows they all do that.

Such has been the level of incessant media negativity of anything Rover K-Series related, the "They all do that" now permeates the wider UK car consumer/repairer scene.

They do NOT all do that .... Over the past twenty years, we have had several new K-Series cars in the family and none of those did that .... ever.

I even changed the CHG on my MGZS when the coolant start to drop and no apparent signs of leaks. I fitted a MLS gasket and head saver shin and in so doing, REMOVED A PERFECTLY SOUND OE PAYEN CHG! In the eight years we've had it, my MGZS has never been in a pro-outfit workshop except for accident repairs and for MoT tests. I've always service my cars myself.Soon after fitting the MLS to my ZS, there was a sudden waterfall of coolant from the timing side of my car's engine. The water pump had finally expired.

Obviously, that pump had been getting progressively more worn and that was the reason for the coolant level falling ....had I spotted the early stages of the wearing pump and renewed that, I need not have replkaced the gasket.

So John, why did you NOT spot the early stages of the wearing water pump. Tell you why. In now over fifty years of car ownership, when a water pump starts to wear there are usually tell tale drips of coolant under the car to alert the driver or caring owner that the pump will need renewal sharpish or...So, no signs of coolant on the ground under the car obviously nothing is amiss ... WRONG.

It was soon after that I learned of the existance of ... The EVAPORATOR ... this clever ( but not so clever ) device collects those small initial drops of coolant from the wearing pump and evaporates them. So, no stains or drops under the car to alert the driver ... until the coolant escapes from the worn out pump at such a rate that the evaporator cannot cope ... hence the sudden coolant waterfall I've now observed with two K-Series cars...by which time the damage to the cylinder head gasket could already have occurred!

Apparently, the evaporator was designed to keep those initial drops of escaping coolant away from the timing belt because contamination could harm the belt. Some say there were other reasons which I tend to believe are valid ones....to do with not alarming the driver or car user who has less shall we say ... Under the bonnet nouse... I believe this as a proportion of car users do not know where their car's bonnet release is ... AA/RAC statistics support this.

Talking of AA callouts, on FiveLive radio, one AA employee attended no less that fourteen stranded motorists in today's arctic cold conditions. Only one, just one even so much as offered him a cup of tea.... Has the average Brit car user really become so mean and uncaring ?.... Sadly, the answer to that could be yes ...
..

[MGJohn]

The AA were called out to a record breaker of over 14,000 breakdown call outs today in these adverse conditions.... every one a K-Series Rover apparently.

Please don't make up facts for the sake of a story.

I used to do logistics for the AA about 4/5 years ago. I still get text messages from an automated system that lets me know when the logger is hitting the fan. It did happen on the 7th of November though but that's the last time.

Request denied ... lighten up Limecat ...
..

[Limecat]

John, did you just say you have been driving for as long as I thought I read?

Doing well if your colostomy bag has held up without rotting out a Rover floor pan.

Fair plays. I didn't realise that you were that old to be honest.

[Limecat]

The AA were called out to a record breaker of over 14,000 breakdown call outs today in these adverse conditions.... every one a K-Series Rover apparently.

Please don't make up facts for the sake of a story.

I used to do logistics for the AA about 4/5 years ago. I still get text messages from an automated system that lets me know when the logger is hitting the fan. It did happen on the 7th of November though but that's the last time.

Request denied ... lighten up Limecat ...
..

It wasn't a request John. I know when the AA are hammered and I haven't worked for them for at least 5 years.

As stated, don't make up false statistics to back up your story. I know and everyone else knows that they are false.

Hell, what do I know? I only used to work for the AA in the exact job and know 1100% that we dealt with bigger demands than they did today.

[MGJohn]

As requested, here's some pictures of the wee beastie ...



That's one of my son's several Rovers alongside ... a 200vi ... he recently swapped the engine ~ the car has the best VVC engine I've ever sampled ... superb! The engine he obtained was from an MGF submitted under the scrappage scheme...

Here's a closer view of the Rover 45 :~



This was the engine before I laid a spanner on it ~ note the colour of the insides of the Coolant Expansion Bottle... that's not oil-coolant mix... just old worn out old coolant staining. There was very little evidence of oil-coolant mix in the engine.



This is what it looked like after a clean ~ you can now see clearly the coolant level at quickly ~ before it was cap off and look inside it was so dirty :~



I spent half and hour cleaning the inside of that bottle ~ on a recent visit to a local scrap yard I lifted the bonnet on a Rover 400 to reveal a brand new pristine coolant bottle... that will come in handy one day :~

Those asking about the MLS gasket ~ yertis ~ with the head saver shim at the top :~

[MGJohn]

Limecat ... please lighten up...

There, I asked nicely ...

======================

That was a report on Radio 5 live... Oh yes, I made up the K-Series bit .... certainly but shirley, nobody reading that, even the most anti-Rover types of which there are many in the former green and pleasant, would believe that...

Oh yes, I know, don't call me shirley..

..

[Limecat]

I am happy to lighten up John but you post as if things are FACT when I know full well as I dealt with their logistics that it is complete rubbish.

I know that what you posted is complete rubbish.

I have clearly stated that.

Could you post confirmation of the 'record' AA call outs? No. You can't. It wasn't record, it wasn't even close to it.

[MGJohn]

Brand new engine in my metro a 1.6 crate engine. Just turned 9000 miles and the head gasket failed last night. Only the weekend before i checked the oil and coolant level. They do seem to go on there own and im really pi££ed because i have 3 cars and none of them work now.

Its only done 9k that's strange.. I'm sure they don't pack up as soon as that..

Ever seen brand new unregistered cars on trade plates being driven far too uncaringly .... I have on numerous occasions... even a couple being raced away from the lights ....... bet that helps brand new engines no end... then it's they all do that mate ... everyone in trade knows that .....

Look ... here's one going right now :~


/
/
/
/

...

[MGJohn]

I am happy to lighten up John but you post as if things are FACT when I know full well as I dealt with their logistics that it is complete rubbish.

I know that what you posted is complete rubbish.

I have clearly stated that.

Could you post confirmation of the 'record' AA call outs? No. You can't. It wasn't record, it wasn't even close to it.

Complete rubbish or not, I merely repeated the report on BBC radio..

I'm ooot...no further exchanges with you.
..

[Limecat]

I am happy to lighten up John but you post as if things are FACT when I know full well as I dealt with their logistics that it is complete rubbish.

I know that what you posted is complete rubbish.

I have clearly stated that.

Could you post confirmation of the 'record' AA call outs? No. You can't. It wasn't record, it wasn't even close to it.

Complete rubbish or not, I merely repeated the report on BBC radio..

I'm ooot...no further exchanges with you.
..

So you have nothing to back it up?

When the AA have a HUGE call out it is public knowledge. I still get updates.

Point me to the 'record' figures?

You can't. Go on, google it. I can 110% guarantee that 17/12/10 was not a record call out.

As stated, please stick to facts.

[Null_Byte]

I am happy to lighten up John but you post as if things are FACT when I know full well as I dealt with their logistics that it is complete rubbish.

I know that what you posted is complete rubbish.

I have clearly stated that.

Could you post confirmation of the 'record' AA call outs? No. You can't. It wasn't record, it wasn't even close to it.

It is the internet Wayne, don't take it so seriously remember

Why are you blaming John for repeating what Radio Five has said, surely if you are that anal about call out figures you should chat to the radio station?

Why are you still receiving callout logs for a company you no longer work for?

[Limecat]

I am happy to lighten up John but you post as if things are FACT when I know full well as I dealt with their logistics that it is complete rubbish.

I know that what you posted is complete rubbish.

I have clearly stated that.

Could you post confirmation of the 'record' AA call outs? No. You can't. It wasn't record, it wasn't even close to it.

It is the internet Wayne, don't take it so seriously remember

Why are you blaming John for repeating what Radio Five has said, surely if you are that anal about call out figures you should chat to the radio station?

Why are you still receiving callout logs for a company you no longer work for?

The fact I still receive them should tell you something?

[Null_Byte]

Well, it tells me you weren't very good at your job then.

By the end of the day, the AA expects to attend around 24,000 call-outs nationally, which will make it one of our busiest days on record.

Like you suggested, I googled it. Perhaps you should have too.

[BazR]

As stated, please stick to facts.

Ok, if we must.

You're an eejit

[Limecat]

Well, it tells me you weren't very good at your job then.

By the end of the day, the AA expects to attend around 24,000 call-outs nationally, which will make it one of our busiest days on record.

Like you suggested, I googled it. Perhaps you should have too.

One of?

It's not a record then is it?

Keep trying.

As stated, please stick to facts.

Ok, if we must.

You're an eejit

At least we have progress. You don't think you are Arnie with a lap top tonight so that needs comendation.

[Marty]

As stated, please stick to facts.

Ok, if we must.

You're an eejit

[MGJohn]

as above money makers unless you have bought one thats got so hot there is 3 to 4mm grovves in the head and the liners have picked upo

Shuuushhh! They'll all be doing it...

.... Good points ~ one of the first things I looked for was fire ring indentation on the exhaust valve side of the cylinder head face once I had removed the cylinder head. The previous owner told me the car was not driven at all once it became obvious there was a problem. I was delighted to see very little signs of any indentation in the head surface ... as can be seen here in this image I took at the time ~ after a clean up, they were simple very shallow witness marks...



The car is running far better than I could have hoped for.

UPDATE on MISFIRE :~

I did mention this misfire in my OP starter.

===================== Copied from another site I use :~

So what caused the misfire, John?

MISFIRE ... that produced an EML/MIL DTC code or two actually. These were :~

P0300 Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected

and ..

P0313 Misfire detected low fuel level.

The gauge read a tad over empty but I put three gallons of U/L in the tank, cleared the codes and right as rain since... Go figure... I've a new MG-R fuel filter ~ I'll fit that too as these later K-Series cars seem to be sensitive to any fuel supply issue ~ The Rover 25 recently bought for my son with HGF now rectified also had similar issues... The EML cam eback three tines after clearing it but, did not after a new MG-R fuel filter was fitted... Go figure.

2nd thoughts ... I never allow my fuel level to go low ... maybe some crud was pulled up from the tank or .... who knows... It's fine now.

...

[Limecat]

I cant figure out if you're being serious or having a laugh Surely it was obvious John was taking the pi55 with the whole 14,000 knackered Rovers bla bla and did expect anyone to take that as actual fact... right? G.S.O.H required tbh.

It wasn't the Rover thing, it was the 'record call-out' which it wasn't. I knew the Rover HGF thing was him joking.